Perhaps next year consider making the prizes some token golden/silver/bronze ship skins and let the teams fight over space honour instead of trillions in prize ships

If anyone is surprised that eve players will do anything to win prizes worth this amount of isk they are incredibly naive. This includes CCP of course.

Yeah, I don't think anyone would be that surprised if this was the last AT

No team came close to beating either of their teams. Fielding 2 teams is within the rules, sharing setups and AT ships is within the rules, they just didn't need to fix their own matches. Had they just genuinely fought each other they'd still get exactly the same share of AT ships and prizes because agreeing to split prizes is also within the rules.

An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for.

One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation.

I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you.

If that is the actual outcome, you will see a massive drop in alliance participation next year. Why should anyone spend 80 some odd PLEX plus all the time/energy/ISK for practice, if there is no collective confidence in CCP's ability to provide/preserve an even playing field?

As for calling it publicly, that's just to show they're looking into it, rather than just silently ignoring questions about DHBs statement. You can't really fault CCP for doing that.

Yet you've made your own prediction, so I guess you're no better.

What you're actually saying is you don't think they'll have left anything concrete as evidence that can be used to prove what they've done

The point at which the ships were taken it ceases to become a troll, even if that's how it started.

There's no way Hydramel can continue to exploit the same flaw in AT rules, so it hurts them more than anyone else. They've been exploiting it for 4 years now and I can't see how CCP cannot change the rules for next year and allow them to continue doing it.

I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired.

If you were a member of the Hydramel team I'd call that :backpeddling: Instead it's just bad spin.

When you kill off your multi-trillion annual income, that's pretty much guaranteed, it's very difficult, even if you were the offspring of Goebbels and the Iraqi Information minister, to spin this as something positive.

Did you name yourself Bad Bobby? or did CCP add the prefix once they saw you post?

I too want it to be the former, trolling themselves out of trillions of ISK with 1st and 2nd prizes year in, year out is hillarious.

Let's face the facts, Hydramel isn't just better than it's closest rivals, it's way better. I can't speak for teams like Nulli, but in the last 2 years in 7 matches, PL is 1-6 down to Hydramel - that's curbstompingly better than PL is.

So yeah, I don't call losing out on your ability to take 1st and 2nd places every year a ~massive troll~

Troll or not, it only works because there's plenty of scope for this to *maybe* have happened, which means CCP are almost certainly going to have to tighten up on collusion and team sharing rules because it jeopardises the integrity of the tournament.

Even if found not guilty, which in the absence of verifiable evidence is a certainty, CCP can't ignore the fact the rules do need to change

So the days of taking 1st and 2nd places are over. 50 Ships instead of 75.

If it's a troll then it cost them at least 2.5 tril to do and that's best case scenario.

they had a 65% chance of finishing better than everyone else by running two teams, which is forbidden, to have A team and B team.

If you're not a hydra alt, you're rather daft.

If you ARE a hydra alt, then you're trying to justify ruining the tournament.

How does it make you feel to be the bad guy?

If it's a troll, then it blew up in their face and they're worse off than everyone else at the moment. They even made PL better off by lowering the available supply of Imps & Fiends, which means PL can charge more due to low supply.

This says it all, you simultaneously claim to be a member of Hydra yet can only suggest it might be an elaborate troll that backfired.

You can't say for sure because you don't actually know and while you think it's more likely it's a troll, you're not prepared to risk your credibility with a definitive answer because you accept that you could well be wrong as it is something the higher ups might have done and not clued you in on.

Interesting insight into Hydra and your position in it.

My apologies, I admit the limits to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that HYDRA was anything but an AT team.

Yeah, so back to the troll that backfired.

There's not much else we can discuss.

none of these things can be reasonably discussed while the question of hydra's cheating hangs in the air. What went wrong was a symptom of the problem with the current ruleset. We're talking about cures, but everyone keeps dragging it back into whether they think hydra did/didnt cheat.

Frankly, that question, as i keep saying, is irrelevant to next year.

I think you actually want to fix the cause of these problems

you just dont want to admit hydra did anything illegal or unethical, again.

You sound like one of the good guys, I wouldn't be surprised if like many of the hydra team you didnt really 'care' why you kept winning as long as you got your payout at the end. That's fine, I might have done the same in your position, but dont keep pulling this back on to whether hydra is guilty or not, that's not the real problem with the tournament.

I think we're in agreement that it should be a competition between teams, this was highlighted by PL before the tournament started and as it progressed. This led to rules clarifications CCP made as best they could. Ultimately, it seems it wasn't enough. It's not like CCP hasn't been liberal, in this thread alone I've highlighted several other ways that Hydramel could have achieved exactly the same effect without actually breaking any rules, but it seems to some this is no fun unless you break a few of the rules. This is where the danger is for Hydramel, CCP have given them scope to do what they've been doing for years now so this is more of an insult to CCP than anything else. We've already all agreed that Hydramel would have won just as easily without cheating. So I think this removes CCPs choice, they will clamp down on all forms of collusion. Which isn't a bad thing, afterall it's an Alliance Tournament, if you can't get 24 people in your own alliance to run tests then guess what, you're not an alliance.

It's a question of balance. It's undeniable AT ships are crowd pleasers, people like to see them on the line and 'sploding, but they are inbalanced and the points cost should start to reflect this. Great if you have them and want to use them, but they should never be the same points cost as the same class of hull. I don't see many people arguing with this.

Personally, I hate the 'community' endless whining and personal attacks made directly at CCP employees. Yet they're expected to sit there and endure it endlessly with only perfectly polite responses, they can't ignore it because it would offend the delicate little flowers and they can't give an emotional response because of expectations of 'professional behaviour'. I think the situation is stupid and an indictment on modern humanity. It's not an Eve thing, it's not a gaming thing, it's a moronic culture that breeds entitlement. I rarely get involved, I don't often read eve-o, reddit or any of the others. I saw it in 2006 it hasn't changed any since.

Basically no, we're all waiting for the outcome of CCPs Investigation and killing time until it's complete.

You mean Warlords of the Deep, right?

Or are you talking about mother Hydra and her offspring Camel and Warlords?

Hydra doesn't have an AT team.

if Camel had their own independent tournament pedigree, why did they need to share setups/ships/tactics with Warlords?

Trust me, I am the official spokesman for PL.

Practice against? or Collude with?

got caught breaking AT rules for an alleged third time

"we fixed matches once and got caught breaking the rules the next year, but guys it's CCP making the bad decisions not us. You should also ignore that we recently got accused of cheating again and having our prize ships confiscated. Did you know Waffles & PL are from the same social group! They're cheating too! :reddit:" - Sad Bobby

You are either really dumb or just desperate. Probably a mix of both.

Yeah you're right, you only got caught twice including this current incident and that's totally different.

Yeah, no. You got caught cheating in the build up to ATX, which was why you were barred from competing that year.

It is because of these philosophical beliefs and changes that we have come to the tough decision of removing three teams from eligibility for competition in Alliance Tournament X.

There has also been enough evidence of breaking the rules for the AT this year that CCP have decided to prevent your group access to the winnings.

That's not making things up, those are things that actually happened in the manner in which they happened.

Yeah... reminds me those Offshore Companys based in the Cook Islands. They are "legal", but for some odd reason the market knows that Tax Haven as "Crook Islands"...

They are known by "Crook Islands" it's because the only thing legal is actually the Company, the facade, the name "Hydra" in this paralelism, if you prefer. What happens behind those facades it's very illegal...

No you tried to claim Hydra is comparable to PL

Running list of removed teams:

Hydra Reloaded
Outbreak.
YOUR VOTES DONGÇÖT COUNT

in reality no actual offense was committed by any of these groups - they just were not eligible to enter the tournament that year due to a change in policy decided upon by CCP and acted upon at a very late stage.

There is however a history of playing to the limit of the rules, in order to win, and occasionally being the victim of unfortunate CCP decisions. A history that we share with PL, our chief detractor.

Hydra directly attacks and insults CCP by trying to ruin Alliance Tournaments - this isn't metagaming or trolling as it's target is the company itself, it's just stupid.

This isn't because Hydra 'lives on the edge' unluckily being the victim of CCPs judgements

And you've missed that Waffles has never been associated with PL in the way that Hydra's heads are.

Waffles use the same website and services so there's an *opportunity* for it to happen, but PL has clearly never used that opportunity which is evident simply by looking at the results in all of the tournaments ever. I think even you will agree that it's obvious that PL provides no actual support other than cheering those loveable little guys on during their matches.

Whenever CCP decides that because there is a link, even if it's not exploited, and Waffles can't participate then we just live with it as it's understandable that the public can be deceived into that kind of thing is happening when Hydra is clearly doing what it does even if we're not.

It's a shame though for Waffles isn't it? Man, they're loveable.

1) Pure conjecture, let's be real none of us are 'in the know'. According to DHB Wildcat, even he wasn't aware until the final weekend and it was only his frustration that led to an alleged convo over Skype with the team captain where the captain confided in him.

The question is, why would he lie and put everything on the line?

If, as you suggested earlier, it's a troll then it's backfired for reasons I've stated numerous times and I hardly think CCP are going to look too kindly to their time being wasted all for someones elaborate joke.

So to me, in addition to DHBs reputation, it would seem he's telling the truth because there's no alternative motive that fits.

2) I think you said yourself in an ealier post that they clearly are not, which fits in with PLs line of thinking which had been pointing out the obvious problems before the AT even got underway. It's kinda sad as it was so avoidable

I've listed numerous ways the Hydra heads could have colluded within the rules

fan favourites like Waffles are unlikely to ever be allowed to participate again because of something that Hydra does and noone else does.

I mean, let's face it - it's not exactly ~clever manipulation of the rules that noone else saw~. It's just that the other 62 teams playing in the AT all got it, we didn't have Goonswarm fielding 20 teams just for the lolz or anyone else. To make it much much worse this is all after CCP lopped of a bunch of Hydra heads a few years ago to underscore the point. Again, everyone else got the message except Hydra. It's naive to say that no-one else saw the scope for the abuse when they were saying it before the Tournament started,

it's just everyone else understands that taking on the company itself is a lot different to trolling players.

So yeah, CCP is going to have to spend a lot of extra time clarifying AT rules to the minutest detail specifically and solely for Hydra, the other 62 teams got the message years ago. Waffles and any other fan favourites similarly affected will just have to accept they don't get to play anymore.

one of the last lines did catch my eye as I scrolled frantically for the bottom of the abyss.As a spectator sport it dies, no-one wants to watch a handful of rich alliances buy up all the AT slots and play with themselves

Yeah, I'm sure Lance Armstrong wouldn't have bothered with performance enhancing drugs either if they didn't offer him an overpowering advantage.

Blame the drugs, not Lance.

So what you're saying is after countless warnings and explainations, even though every single other competing alliance gets it, Hydra just cannot possibly resist the temptation to cheat?

And it's CCPs fault for not instituting a 300 page explanation of the rules that locks every possible avenue down.

It's not CCPs job to chase after one alliance spread across several parts because they consistently ruin the tournament.

Yeah, I can understand that and it's fine.

We'll just pencil it in as another troll that backfired.

Your whole argument revolves around 'but honestly we didnt KNOW CCP would get upset that we fixed their entire tournament with outbreak! Our cheating wasnt technically against the rules, why are you holding it against us it's not fair we just want to play the game you guys. You guys?' :Cartman:

Nobody is that dense. Give it up. You goofed, now you're scared youre gonna get banned for real. Nothing you will say now will change the outcome of the verdict, and you're just making it worse trying to absolve yourself of any guilt.

Why is it so difficult to say okay we ****** up, it will never happen again, we will try and profit from the tournament through honest means in the future?

Are we meant to be looking forward to the day Hydra finally perfects their AT match fixing technique?

Do you really think continuing on this line is going to gain you ANY support?

You really can't win this one, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

First off, whose 'we'? I thought warlords and CAMEL were the finalists, not hydra.

Didnt hydra get banned for fixing matches like you just said they did?

Second, you 'won' AT IX too, and that turned out great for you in the long run, didnt it?

No man, you've lost.

You literally said that Hydra's fixed matches but didn't do it well enough while simultaneously saying wildcat is a liar with his logs and you haven't fixed matches despite his reputation that he's built over many years.

If you still think he's trolling, then I for one would love to hear CCPs reaction when they find out their time and resources are being wasted.

You have to admit, it really does look quite bad for Hydra

You said yourself that Hydra was victim of CCPs rulings. It's pretty clear that they intentionally found a way to exclude Hydra precisely because of the final the year before that Hydra ruined by badly staging the fight. You admitted as much yourself.

That was the warning. The, "hey, yeah, don't ever do that again moment". I'm not sure why you haven't realised that and done it again this year. Maybe CCP have to explicitly tell the Hydra teams in clear language, like the rules.

Scroll up, it's the bit where you basically say "We f****d up fixing matches, sorry you guys noticed, it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the rules getting in the way - CCP need to fix that"

Listening to your sketchy defence and DHB Wildcats post, I can't help but feel it's looking like this did all happen.

Basically you're down to saying that Wildcat must have had a mental breakdown because that's literally the only thing that can plausibly explain the events of the last week. That's a desperate argument.

I would be extremely surprised if other AT members from one of Hydra's heads haven't seen whats coming and confessed what they know to save themselves. They all know it's only going to take a few out of a pool of what 30? 40? and they aren't going to want to be the ones that end up carrying the can. Truth always outs as you've been eloquently demonstrating during the course of this thread.

So you're now backpeddling and saying you have no clue as you're not involved in any capacity.

Wow 12 pages, keep on going gents

I wonder how many extra pages we can make it to once the bans are official

This isnt a debate.

This is the question of whether hydra cheated this year.

Debates dont have yes or no answers.

Did hydra cheat? Yes? No?

Everything that you have said so far pushes the perception to 'yes'.

As you said Bad Bobby, short of DHB Wildcat having somekind of meltdown, his allegations are certainly true.

So it's a question of probability. Hydra, very probably cheated and fixed matches, just like it has a history of doing.

There just aren't many alternatives that fit the situation.

Judging by how you've moved your stance in the last few days I think you're beginning to realise where exactly this is all going.

So, with that in mind, how do you think the 30-40 boys on the teams are holding out?

I was wondering when Hydra was going to order you to stop posting.

what did DHB have to be angry at?

And you admit yourself this will continue to occur until the rules are written in a way that no one can spin them in a fashion that could be misinterpreted.

I'll be very interested to see how this plays out.

In regards to your reply about the rules of AT "If nobody had an illegitimate incentive to throw a match, then the very question of match throwing can be put to bed"

That is a very subjective statement, what drives player A may not drive player B. The whole purpose of a tournament is to have a winner. If player A is focussed on ISK, and the AT has a massive ISK reward, then he has motivation. However if player B is not motivated by ISK, but eHonor and winning, then he has motivation no what the "reward" is. Just winning is his motivation.

In short;

CCP should not have picked double elimination, this forced Hydra/Camel to do match fixing
Damn you CCP...

That's not the reason at all, and thinking it is supports the notion that you suffer from a victim complex.

Please provide evidence that CCP barring Hydra/Outbreak for violating rules was actually because they wanted vengeance for the match fixing in ATIX as you claimed.

I'll wait.

That's a bit mean, none of us are important enough to have our opinions really matter.

He does have a point though about the defensive complex, you do seem to feel that CCP has victimised Hyrda when it's actually CCP who has to deal with the extra workload and problems that having Hydra in creates.

We were punished for that through the exclusion from ATX, which hit both of our teams, while CCP only decided to exclude one of yours. That's because they had a reason to be vengeful against HYDRA and no reason to be so against PL. We understand that we ruined the ATIX final, we understand that we caused CCP a massive embarrassment and lost them money. We are sorry for that and have no intention of repeating that performance.

But you did repeat it.

This right now, is a repetition.

PL didn't get punished because it did nothing wrong (traditional definition, not Hydra definition). Crying because PL didn't take the fall what Hydra did isn't likely to get you much sympathy

ITs the tournament. That's what its there to do. Make a ruleset so that the best pilots come out on top. If it doesnt do that, then there is no point in there being a tournament at all.

no of COURSE not, but its funny every time hydra has just ran one team, we seem to wipe the floor with you :itsamystery:

This isn't something we could know from watching the tournament.

I was going to to say
"Thats not proof in any way or form, someone can make a skype account and call himself Kadesh, talk to his other account, collude with himself and then submit that as proof. Since you cant proof that it was the actual person it doesnt count"

But yeah, if he simply screenshared proof that it was indeed the leadership by virtues of showing it was him in other chat rooms then it probably would count.

There's no need to be so upset at a simple request to prove a claim you made.

If you read the logs before they were moderated (available on other sites) then you will know that the Team Captain explicitly talked about throwing matches by arrangement between the Hydra heads.

It can be verified from DHB Wildcats client as I described, although not from Kadesh's, as he can delete single messages.

If Wildcats claims are true and CCP screenshare to witness the logs still in place then it's case closed. No room to spin with it.

Can we get a reaction from Bad Bobby to the recent development?